twin wastegates ?

[Tocchi]

im getting a manifold made up (by ETM based in over east)

they've mentioned the option of running a (turbosmart) Progate 60mm/tial 60mm (plumbed into the back of the turbine housing)
or the option of running two Tial 44mm's, or two Progate 50mm.

ill be running either a GT4502r or a GT4508r and ill be running a screamer (not plumbed back into exhaust)

im asking here just incase im getting convinced by the company into purchasing two 44mm/50mm wastegates instead of a cheaper one 60mm etc. or vice versa (unsure of prices)

basically, im conservatively looking a power figure that can turn the tyres, so what would be best option for me to take?

*edit* http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44057&hl=

[DCIEVE]

twin gates if you have the coin, ultimate set-up for a true ts turbo & manifold combination

[Saf]

What kinda pwer are we talking here ?

Unless your making big power, twins can cause grief. Plus they make twice the radiated heat, twice the space, twice the hassle and twice the failure point potentially.

With twin gates you reach your pop off pressure, thats what you normally dont measure as in the buildup between the piston top and the turbine buckets, and the signal comes in for the WG to open. With twins if the flow isnt enough they can chatter on and off.

As the WG opens, the pressure drops, the WG now drops too much, so it closes, as it closes it wants to open again and so on. While the cycle may not go a full length from open to close, its not optimal.

I have the worlds most beautiful twin gate here, a SARD / Toyota Technocraft (TRD racing japan) twin 29mm inconel housed watercooled WG. And they work superb .... why ? ... twin 29mm, not twin 50's.

Plus, from my exp and worked with almost every good WG, WG operation is NOT relative to size. For EG a slow acting poorly designed chamber on a WG will make a 50mm work worse than a competitors 50mm. For eg, open and close rates.

Once your starting to spike on a WG because of slow opening time, you have a hard time recovering it, and your given the false sence of feeling that the gate is too small, when in reality it maybe quite fine, but its too slow, and another gate the same size may control all your boost no probs.

Watch this vid for open and close on a GOOD wasteagte. Good to me is Synapse, then everything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNbMTLzZck

Originally that comparison WG was a tial, it was leaking like a air stone in a aquarium, but its re-done now as i think lawers stepped in.

1700hp in a rotary on a single 50. (fires each rotation = lot of gas flow) <-- 3:48 :)

If you need twin 50, that combined has more surface area than most exducers on big turbos, and would stall the turbine if it didnt infact have inertia and have direct line of sigh of exhaust gas. My starting point at twins is over 900rwhp, or a tad less in circuit driven race cars.

PS : If you need a Synapse , let me know i have these most of the time.

[Tocchi]

woah Saf, thats bucketloads of info. much appreciated.
and that video is interesting

looking at 700hp plus, the car ran high 8s with the 383 Clevo pumping out 650hp... the Clevo is now out of the car and the Phoon motor will be going in. with a powerglide behind it

the manufacturer of the manifolds, with single gate setups, puts it on the rear turbine housing (so the ideal position)... but the site is down at the moment so i havent been able to ask him about his WG positioning on the twin setup.

so going by what you said about the rotary, i should be fine with a single 60mm WG ???


btw, the Synapse, is that the diagphram-less manifolds that have started coming onto the market?
btw, v-band flange for the Synapse gates?

[bodybodyrock]

interesting read and vid

[iluv2moan]

was that first wastegate a ebay china spec??

[DCIEVE]

So if you want to run a single 'synapse' gate, you end up with a gate pipe from each side of the manifold to the single gate similar to the trust etc manifolds - I thought there was good reaon why the FR guys ran a seperate wastegate for each scroll, keeping it a true ts set-up.
The more important thing with the etm and 6boost manifolds is intergration of the wastegate pipe, theres a good reason why etm prefers to run the gate of the exh housing. No amount of tricky gates is going to help you when your not getting exh gas to the gate.

[2jzlux]

what coin are you talking for a synapse 50mm gate

[Saf]

looking at 700hp plus, the car ran high 8s with the 383 Clevo pumping out 650hp... the Clevo is now out of the car and the Phoon motor will be going in. with a powerglide behind it

Ok thats good to know, sorry i dont know all peoples rides.

Ok on a dragger your running hard in launch and with the powerlide your always on tap, with a high stall and even a fully manualised valvebody and drum splitting servo shifts ... its still going to be soppy and give you heaps of rpm between the shift.

In this case, yes id go twin WG. Yes it is the diaphram-less gate, and it does run the v clamps.

What shits me is when people run 370rwhp cars on the street with a pair of GT HKS gates .... no matter how much money some have, you cant buy class.

Wastegates work with manifolds, and the purest function of a WG is to pressure relieve. Turbos run on heat, pressure and burnt exhaust gas. Ive done quite a bit of turbo manifold r&d over the years, and sadly the turbine destroys everything that exhaust timing / pressure wave and tuning stands for in a 4 stroke engine. Ive made equal length manifolds, and on the same engine run non equal lenth, but relocated the turbo and wg to its optimal point and gained hp ...

Even at a TS setup, if the WG port is installed in a optimal area, and the WG does flow enough with a fast acting gate, it doesnt matter if its got 12 scrols, with the drop in pressure, comes a drop in peak turbine flow, as does shaft speed hence boost on the comp side.

One thing ive never done, is T the wastegate in, rather i V them in, facing the path towards the flow direction. Long before i made my first manifold my science teacher said "air flows in the path of least resistance", and air will rather fork off in a 45deg than turn 90deg at 8000rpm of gas flow.

Those ETM manifolds are nice, and work well, and the one thing they are good at what is the key to good manifolds, is they run a nice collector length, and a clean collection point.

But to go backa step, big stall, rpm with only one shift and on the power ina dragger at that HP, yes go twin. And fact is if you end up later next season going more hp, your WG can accomodate.

[juggernaut]

Unless your making big power, twins can cause grief. Plus they make twice the radiated heat, twice the space, twice the hassle and twice the failure point potentially.


Tell me about it......a little off topic but here's my twin gate full-race twin scroll SR20 setup.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/juggernaut000/SR20Build012.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/juggernaut000/SR20Build003.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/juggernaut000/SR20Build004.jpg

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/juggernaut000/SR20Build002.jpg

and the finished result

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff132/juggernaut000/SR20Build010.jpg

[Saf]

Yea saw that at the workshop, quite a nice manifold.

[juggernaut]

So you know Lumpy then?

[Saf]

But of course ... supplies Vi-Pec for me and my customers, not to mention one of the few in the industry i dont find to be .... well, yea.

[lachlanrb20s13]

synapse wastegates won best new product at sema 07 didnt they? something like that...
some big car show...
well the point is there

[evil1]

is that in a s15?

[juggernaut]

is that in a s15?

yes

[ovaxitd]

synaps price??

[Tocchi]

saf, what price can you do a 50mm synapse for? :)
got any in stock?

[Saf]

Tocchi, Hey there just got your sms, and saw this.

I ddont sell the Synapse anymore as there isnt enough demand in cheap arse Perth ... i just couldnt order 12 gates for two sales and have too many laying about, just left it.

But check ebay, and online stores.

[Tocchi]

no probs ivan. makes sense really.

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/WG002B-1
$375 US, is that a good price?

[matt_2jzs13]

racespec in aus sell them, i bought mine last year when the yen was good for about $600-650 i think it was, $799 now though, still better than genuine hks or trust prices

http://racespec.com.au/index.php?cPath=291&osCsid=33f98cc791a412ddbc85c5554f84ceec

[iluv2moan]

synapse might be good stuff - but the way they go about promoting their produsct by comparign it to others is bullshit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0R1KvQRk84

who here has a hks bov that behaves like the one in the vid - cause mine doesnt. notice the 2 completely diff drivign styles used when testing aswell

[2jzlux]

It also says 25psi maximum is it possible to run more than that?

[Saf]

$375 US, is that a good price?

Im not sure i havent bought one at RRP in quite a while, but the exchange rate right now is top shelf.


synapse might be good stuff - but the way they go about promoting their produsct by comparign it to others is bullshit

Its great, it sorts the dickheads out there with heresay ramblings on forums. As far as BOV's, if you want function, go GReddy or Sard. Rest only make noise. Of course thats only my opinion, if that doesnt suit anyone personally reading this, im not going to emo about it.

[iluv2moan]

Its great, it sorts the dickheads out there with heresay ramblings on forums. As far as BOV's, if you want function, go GReddy or Sard. Rest only make noise. Of course thats only my opinion, if that doesnt suit anyone personally reading this, im not going to emo about it.

u got a link to a youtube clip which compares a sard or trust type r out performing a synapse bov underwater to base your opinion on?

[Saf]

u got a link to a youtube clip which compares a sard or trust type r out performing a synapse bov underwater to base your opinion on?

Underwater ... looking .... looking .... no. Only have one on a space station in a total vac.

That do ?.

[iluv2moan]

american or russian?

[Saf]

Hahah, american.

Lada needs no BOV.

[Tocchi]

Im not sure i havent bought one at RRP in quite a while, but the exchange rate right now is top shelf.

yeh thats ok. i dont think there will be many, if not more than a handful of suppliers in australia. so international looks to be the best option.

[monk_13]

Hate to take sides instead of sittin on the fence, but from my limited research of the synapse gear (only started looking since this thread) if/when i do go FI on the Z, I think I will be leaning towards their products. Only bad thing I have found about their products is pricing... And even then its not too bad compared to some of the stuff I have been looking at.

[Saf]

Its still well priced compared to the JDM gear that will do a simmilar job (wastegates i mean) TRUST and HKS for eg. Plus they are a stainess casting, hence they wont rust and look terrible if they arent treated with some coating of sorts.


so international looks to be the best option.

Yea sadly thats the only way, i dont go out of my way to support locals because its a one way raping. Dollar goes down, prices go up. Dollar goes up, prices still stay same as when it was in the slump.

[Tocchi]

here's some places i found that sell them, in case people are looking to get one:
a snyapse 50mm

Racespec (adelaide)
http://racespec.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=643&osCsid=33f98cc791a412ddbc85c5554f84ceec
supposedly "Flanges and hardware will be included"
$799 Aus


No Limits motorsport (USA)
http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/WG002B-1
supposedly "Flanges and hardware will be included"
$375 USD (= $447 AUS)


Synapse (USA)
http://synapseengineering.com/cart/catalog/Wastegates-1-1.html
without flanges. $379 USD (=$452 AUS)
with flanges. $429 USD (=$511 USD)




also, can get a Tial 60mm for $900 through a Victorian company called ETM.
http://www.extrememanifolds.com/

[31-EVO]

Racespec is probaby great if you don't want your part in the next 6 months or so. They have been shit canned on alot of other forums, maybe things have changed and they have improved *shrugs*

[Tocchi]

i went through No Limits Motorsport, $450 USD landed to my door.
so that cost me $551.66 for the Synapse 50mm (including all the flanges and clamps etc)
note: EXCELLENT customer service, ie: very prompt email replies (during USA business hours)

half the price of the Turbosmart and Tial 60mm's, and $350 cheaper than the previous brands 50mm gates. :)

should be interesting to see how this wastegate goes :)