View Full Version : Advice on progressive vs. digressive and KW vs custom Koni coilovers
Fujiwara13
20-02-2013, 08:16 PM
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Lonewolf
20-02-2013, 09:25 PM
shane (monk_13) has a set of V3's on his 350z
you'll find it hard to make some comparisons given different cars though...
motoIQ have some good KW articles on their site if you want to read up some of the technical stuff.
You can get KW clubsports for those V3 prices if you order through 'works concept' on zilvia.com.
Both the koni and KW coilovers are quality (dont know about fortune auto). You are basically paying the extra money for the KW because they dont require any DIY and the quality of the total package (ie you also get helper springs and those fancy as fuck camber tops). In terms of performance its unlikely to be of any noticeable diff unless your competing at a fairly high level.
The advantage of the Koni is the $$$ savings and you can rebuild them yourself.
The problem with going bilstein dampers in a custom housing is that they dont offer any adjustability, unless your getting the high end gear (there are also some bilsteins with a adjuster that from all reports is fairly shit although i cant remember what model it was, maybe pss9?). You can get bilsteins revalved in sydney although that would be annoying (and costly) every time you want to make an adjustment. You can rebuilt bisteins yourself but adding a schrader valve to the front shock is a bit dicky.
As for ohlins, there isn't much support for them in Australia. Also be aware there are jap made and sweden made ohlins which depending who you ask are of different quality.
Maybe throw AST into the mix as they have a fairly good name and local support i think.
Crispymk2
21-02-2013, 05:50 AM
Fortune Auto are very well regarded. I will be going for their 500 Series soon for the Levin
ichi-go
21-02-2013, 09:34 AM
KW makes AST coilovers
I wouldnt worry about getting coilovers that can pass pits as it's a grey area, some pass with it, some dont
Just get/borrow some stock suspension for pits and swap to coilovers after registering
Personally, if you had the coin to spare, just get some custom coilovers, MCA or DMS
Local support and can custom valving to suit spring rates
monk_13
21-02-2013, 09:44 AM
The V3's are pretty good. Nice & compliant on the street and pretty good on the track so far as well. I never got around to changing the settings on them too much, apart from stiffening up the rear compression slightly. Adjusting rebound is in the top of the strut, but compression is a wheel off affair for the 350z, and I'm way too lazy for that when at the track :p
If it's a track only car, or at least a minimal road use car, look at something more track specific. The AST's are very nice from all reports, and something I would/will be looking into for the next car.
Have you considered talking to the guys at MCA or Drummond Motorsport? Both Aussie companies, which will make parts & service a little easier, and good reputations as well.
KW makes AST coilovers
I wouldnt worry about getting coilovers that can pass pits as it's a grey area, some pass with it, some dont
Just get/borrow some stock suspension for pits and swap to coilovers after registering
Personally, if you had the coin to spare, just get some custom coilovers, MCA or DMS
Local support and can custom valving to suit spring rates
MCA and DMS both look good. Any idea if they are manufactured fully in house or they use someone elses dampers or piston?
VZ_V8
05-03-2013, 08:29 PM
Whilst it is a completely different car I run the DMS 40mm coilovers in the front of my ute with Bilsteins in the rear. Have nothing but good things to say about the performance of them. I am only running 7kg/mm springs with them, which aren't overly hard but the valving in the shocks have great control to allow them to absorb bumps and soak up the landing from jumping ripple strips etc.
You're obviously looking at spending a bit more than I did, but just giving some feedback on the DMS.
Excuse my lack of knowledge but isn't digressive valving usually used in rally cars for stability over high speed bumps? So they aren't harsh with high shaft speed?
tinto
13-03-2013, 06:26 PM
I have KW clubsports in my S15 and had the V3 in my Golf GTI. They are a really nice piece of kit.
The low speed (body roll & pitch) compression control is great and the high speed compression (bumps etc) means it doesn't get upset if you hit a rough patch in a corner. The guys at C-Red helped me with new brake lines as the standard S15 stuff wasn't compatible.
On my GTI I didn't bother with sway bars etc as the dampers kept that car flat around corners yet comfortable all the time. My S15 has front castor arms and a sway bar - otherwise stock. ~56 sec short track in its current state. Definitely a stiffer setup, but that was my intention with that car.
Sounds like you've got your head around it - certainly took me a while to understand low speed/high speed compression adjustments and just how much you can make the car feel like crap if you get it wrong. I'm pretty happy with where mine is now.
I also went through works concepts. But I believe the guys on NissanRoadracing.com (whose store name is slipping my mind right now - endurance?) are able to get this stuff too. It all smells drop-shipped anyway, so I'd just go with the best price there.
I went for clubsports in the S15 for the camber tops and firmer damping over the v3. I wasn't bothered about either of those on the Golf as it was a road car. The v3 ride quality was very close to a stock GTI.
VZ_V8
14-03-2013, 05:30 PM
How did you go about arranging the damping on them? Do you ride them on the street at all?
Digressive damping/valving from my understanding refers to where the amount of damping that your suspension has isn't proportional to the velocity of the stroke. Where a progressive damper will damp more (a higher camping coefficient) and provide more resistance to the stroke as the velocity increases, a digressive system will provide a lower amount of resistance to high speed strokes than it does to slower ones. The way I read it is that it'd be very difficult to have something that does this as one process, so what digressive systems look like on dyno plots is a curve that represents the damping under low speed compression, and a curve that represents the damping under high speed compression, joined at a "knee", which is the velocity people rate as the transition between bumps or uneven road surfaces and body roll.
For anybody who reads this in future and wants to follow a similar line of inquiry, I've pretty much settled on a split of the KW's and the Koni/Eibach idea. I've got two s-chassis, an s13 that sees a bit of time on the road, making low responsive power, and a 180sx with a bells and whistles engine arrangement. I'll be putting together the Koni two-way adjustable digressive dampers and Eibach's for the s13, since after a long talk with Marc from C-RED he recommended that this would give me better control/ride, and maybe look into a set of KW V3's for the 180 depending on how well the first set go.
Interesting point: Ground Control in the states supply Koni/Eibach suspension for quite a lot of cars at a pretty decent rate, for my Koni 8611 (2-way fancy highly acclaimed damper) and Eibach setup they came in at sub $2k.
Cheers for the info.
As for the damping, I let DMS set up the valving as they saw fit based on what I wanted out of the set up. The 40mm unfortunately only have the one adjustment which controls both bump and rebound together. I adjust them depending on what I am doing, my ute is my daily so for the most part I soften the damping so it isn't too harsh on our shitty roads, because combined with the sway bars and the superpro bushes it can be a nightmare. Then for the track I just adjust them as I see fit, obviously they get stiffened up from what I have it set for on the street but I find it doesn't need to be too stiff to work well. If it is too hard the car bounces of the kerbs to violently.
DJDINO
17-03-2013, 07:26 PM
Have had both DMS and MCA, both very good, Murray at MCA is always available to discuss options and setup so that is worth $$$$ in itself.
DJDINO
18-03-2013, 10:05 PM
I had 3 way adjustable MCA in an Evo IX race car with 700/800lb springs, this was surprisingly compliant even on the road, the DMS were in a GC8 road car, can't remember spring rates.
I have seen some fantastic results with people using DMS 50's with progressive springs in Targa cars, the MCA's are very well built, they are bomb proof, I think next set will be MCA gold 2 ways with progressive springs.
alexinperth
19-03-2013, 07:51 AM
+1 MCA. Which of these other options allows you to talk to the guy that designed and built them?
Murray has donkeys years of experience, and his stuff is fully rebuildable.
He uses some bilstein parts for the internals.
I have a MCA non-canister setup for my rally S13, and it's the best stuff I've driven on for this chassis (have a heap of other suspension that I tried). My setup is obviously too soft for racing on tarmac though.
DJDINO
19-03-2013, 06:36 PM
Agree mate, Murray is a great guy and always has time to answer questions on setup, not too many companies do this.
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