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Marti
04-03-2013, 08:22 PM
I will be buying a short wheel base patrol soon and will be using it more in sand and bush.
I need tyres that will work well in these conditions(Dont really care about road noise aslong as they work).
I will be doing a 3 inch suspension lift soon but for now to avoid a yellow sticker i need to put new tyres on it (33 in)

what do you guys recommend from experiance. I know someone will recommend deflating tyres but i proberbly wont be going on beach sand


Thanks

Marti

Niva
04-03-2013, 08:30 PM
Just stay away from mud terrains, they are designed to dig and thats exactly what you dont want in the sand.

Also stay away from coopers and some other brands that have ridiculous 900 ply sidewalls, you let them down and they wont spread out as much as you want.

Any other tyre is good on sand, A/T's, even highway terrains will outperform a mud terrain in the sand. The most important thing is to drop your pressures, depending on the tyre and rim and how good you are not driving like a dick, most will go down to 10psi without running the risk of blowing it off the bead and that will allow you to idle through the softest of sand and still be able to maintain a decent speed along the beach.

Maxxis A/T's from experience are a great sand tyre and very well priced.


edit, Just noticed you wont be going on the beach :P

Marti
04-03-2013, 08:35 PM
ok, who would sell these tyres for a decent price, iv just sent westy an email asking what he can do price wise

Niva
04-03-2013, 08:46 PM
you will find all the bob janes, tyre powers, diffens etc will be similar prices on the known brand tyres but worth giving them a call. Def try Westy.

Just dont let Bridgestone etc try and talk you into filling them with nitrogen haha if you have a spare wheel cover or dont mind the look, try save yourself some cash on getting a 5th tyre second hand so they are all the same size.

wheel alignment is also a good idea

Marti
04-03-2013, 09:02 PM
yeah the patrol im looking at has a good condition spare, i just need a decent set of tyres for it as a couple are baled,i work in the car industry so hopefully ill get a decent deal ha ha

pgc
04-03-2013, 09:04 PM
I have BF Goodrich A/Ts and am very happy with them in all kinds of sand.

Got mine through St George Tyres in Sydney, landed on my doorstep and got Ian Diffens to fit them. Still cheaper than getting anyone here to supply and fit.

Marti
04-03-2013, 09:08 PM
wow, well looks like i will need to shop around

ED40
04-03-2013, 10:15 PM
I have used both BFGoodrich A/T's and Bridgestone Desert Duelers, 95% of my 4wd work has been sand and I'd recommend either. I'd probably say the BFG is the better all-round tyre though, its a bit more robust than the Dueler but it's also more expensive.

They both hold up well and they come into their own when the pressure is around 10-12psi.

Yakky Bear
04-03-2013, 11:31 PM
really cant go past a bfg all terrain, previously working in the tyre industry for a number of years these appeared to work the best for mainly sand.

mr_mike
05-03-2013, 01:36 PM
I had bald bfg a/t's and they were awesome in the sand, drop em down to 14psi and was great. Now have M/T's and they are shocking in the sand they just dig a hole.

I read that H/T or light truck tyre are the best in sand once you drop the psi

Fozzy
05-03-2013, 01:52 PM
A good quality all terrain as mentioned above is the way to go.

Personally I reckon the Bridgestone Dueler A/T's (697's as they are the replacement for 694's) are hard to beat If you shop around they can be had fairly cheap. Last for ages and perform well in 99% of conditions and have the best on road manners out of most of the ones I have tried.

mod
05-03-2013, 02:48 PM
I had Bridgestone Dueler A/T on my Sierra and they were awesome...

also had H/T one time they were the best I reckon, tho being in a light car may have helped.

jez321
05-03-2013, 02:57 PM
On sand normal road tyres out perform everything else. Seen a few tests they did in a mag and road tyres cameout best on sand because they dont dig as much but all terains are a better all round tyre

Deke
05-03-2013, 04:21 PM
has anyone tryed micky thompson ATZ? i think there suppose to be an all terrian

Marti
05-03-2013, 04:45 PM
i have found some kumho all terrains for a good price, anyone delt with them ?, also ill be going 31's not 33's as stated

gazza750
05-03-2013, 05:10 PM
I havent had any probs with Maxxis A/T's on my pathfinder Just drop the pressure down to about 15 to 18 psi

upgarage
05-03-2013, 05:48 PM
Air down properly = any tyre will work

MT = generally stiffer sidewall and therefore need to run lower pressure than AT equivalent. EG bfg km2 vs bfg at ko. More useful in sand than a AT provided you have sufficient power (similar concept to paddle tyre on a motorbike)
AT = good compromise between the two
HT = may be better but offer little in the way of puncture protection

monk_13
05-03-2013, 07:28 PM
Was running Federal Courigia MT's on the beach on the weekend. 12 PSI and they were still SHIT. Will be swapping for a set of BFG AT's once finances allow.

(AUST)Mod
05-03-2013, 07:51 PM
i have found some kumho all terrains for a good price, anyone delt with them ?, also ill be going 31's not 33's as stated

I ran the Kumho Road Vetures ATs for ages - excellent tyre in all conditions except mud.

Niva
05-03-2013, 07:57 PM
Air down properly = any tyre will work

MT = generally stiffer sidewall and therefore need to run lower pressure than AT equivalent. EG bfg km2 vs bfg at ko. More useful in sand than a AT provided you have sufficient power (similar concept to paddle tyre on a motorbike)
AT = good compromise between the two
HT = may be better but offer little in the way of puncture protection


Have to disagree with you there unless you are talking about sticking the M/T on a 400hp patrol and even still, having been out with one its fucked. you have to stop or slow down half way up a hill you can forget about taking off again in a forward direction.

Marti
05-03-2013, 07:58 PM
awsome, ill be doing daily driving and some sand stuff. for the price they were offered to me i think its good ha ha

mr_mike
05-03-2013, 07:59 PM
Was running Federal Courigia MT's on the beach on the weekend. 12 PSI and they were still SHIT. Will be swapping for a set of BFG AT's once finances allow.

drop em down even lower then, alot of people will run M/Ts down as low as 9-10psi on sand. As Ian said tho MT's will work better on sand on a heavier vehicle as they have the weight to make the sidewalls bag out. I ran some cheap M/Ts on my hilux extracab and even down to 10psi they wouldnt bag out where as the KM2s on my Patrol will bag out nicely on 12psi.

Niva
05-03-2013, 08:09 PM
I will swap and change tyres on the niva, as its not my daily drive anymore I have luxury to do so.

have a few sets of tyres... 33"s, 31"s, and my favorite sand tyre? hankook 215/75/15. can drop them down to 4psi and still not have to worry about the bead blowing off unless a roo jumps out at me.

un-fucking-stopable in the sand. the smaller size, no doubt helps greatly with the 80hp motor but with a rear locker and 4 pound.. can actually crawl up some stuff that I need a major run up to conquer with a decent sized AT.

monk_13
05-03-2013, 08:29 PM
drop em down even lower then, alot of people will run M/Ts down as low as 9-10psi on sand. As Ian said tho MT's will work better on sand on a heavier vehicle as they have the weight to make the sidewalls bag out. I ran some cheap M/Ts on my hilux extracab and even down to 10psi they wouldnt bag out where as the KM2s on my Patrol will bag out nicely on 12psi.

I did notice that they weren't bagging out too much, but put that down to the soft surface more than anything. Being new to the whole fourbie thing, wasn't sure just how low you can go with these things. Will drop them a little more next time for sure...

PX Rangers kerb weight is 2159 and I have added the ARB bar and canopy, so weighs a little more.

Marti
05-03-2013, 08:32 PM
im also new to the 4wd scene , i alway thought with out bead locks you would struggle to drop tyres below 20 psi

steve-lang
05-03-2013, 08:40 PM
im also new to the 4wd scene , i alway thought with out bead locks you would struggle to drop tyres below 20 psi

I ran my coopers at 6 a few times in straight lines just to get out of trouble, no problems

South
05-03-2013, 09:52 PM
power with M/T will dig holes... torque with M/T will crawl

keep your H/T for sand work, if you plan on gravel work / powerlines go to an A/T

Fozzy
06-03-2013, 12:07 AM
I run 12 no probs without beadlocks all the time have been as low as 5 to get out of trouble. Like anything you need to be sensible about how you go about it but it can be done.

Someone asked about mickey t atz's. shithouse never again

RBS13
06-03-2013, 05:47 AM
I run 12-13psi on bighorn muddies on my shorty and all i do is sand/beach work... Like the above post if you use your torque you will crawl through, never had a problem or been bogged with mine yet...but tyres wont last no where near as long as a a/t

RBS13
06-03-2013, 06:19 AM
Also not being a prick,or if i have missed something, but whats the point of a 3" lift kit if your getting 31's ? Will be fine on stock hight, as lift kit wont change diff clearance.

Marti
06-03-2013, 06:58 AM
I was going to buy 33's and do the lift later, but iv been told 33's won't fit on a standard short wheel base patrol. Regardless the tyres are balled so I need to change them. Ill put 33 on later once the lift is donw

mr_mike
06-03-2013, 10:13 AM
im also new to the 4wd scene , i alway thought with out bead locks you would struggle to drop tyres below 20 psi

Depends how u drive, if ur doing donuts and hard turns then yes u will roll off the bead. Only time I have popped a tyre of a bead is down Harvey was on about 8psi and turned hard after comin out of a rut. Jammed a heap of mud under the bead and was enough to break it.

upgarage
06-03-2013, 02:52 PM
Quoting tyre pressures is meaningless without quoting the weight of the car

lazy6
10-04-2013, 05:36 PM
ive been running maxxis bravo 751's perfect on the beach can run 10psi no dramas never let me down, so far around 50thousand ks on them and another 10 to 15 easy left.

Marti
10-04-2013, 06:18 PM
I bought a set of cheap all terrains for 200 each. Keen to go out and try them when we have an antilag 4wd day

devilfish
10-04-2013, 08:43 PM
ive gone down to 6 psi on BFG Km2's whilst stuck on the beach, just air up a bit before you try and turn....

Marti
10-04-2013, 09:07 PM
General consensus is drop tyre pressures to 5-10psi to get
Out of sand?

S85FI
10-04-2013, 09:10 PM
The width of the tyre isn't what gets you out of a bog, it's the rolling radius of the tyre. Thin tyre with big aspect ratio. IE. tall sidewall. When the tyre is deflated the rolling radius of a tall tyre is increased by about 55% and a fat tyre is only about 15%.

If you doubt this, compare tyre in soft sand with your friends tyres. Get someone with a thin tyre vs a fat tyre. Deflate both tyres to the same pressure in the soft sand. Pump tyres back to road pressure. Take note of where the sand is squashed and you will see the thin tyre will have a long depression. Fat tyre will only be marginally better. Thin tyre will be long and flat and that's what stops you getting bogged. Imagine it like a tank track.

Down side, if pressure is too low on thin tyre it will be more prone to pop off rim, however 12psi or so will be enough to hang on as long as your not on full lock under power.

A thin tyre will be more puncture resistant as it won't get staked as easy and the side wall is usually stronger by default due to the higher side walls.

Have a look at any military vehicle.... when was the last time you saw them with a fat tyre? or were they thin will a tall profile? Think back to the Willies Jeep and look at any current army 4wd in Afganstan or Irag, Somalia etc... none of them are equipped with a fat tyre, these guys can't afford to get bogged.

The fat aggressive tyre will only dig you in. Full stop.

devilfish
10-04-2013, 09:18 PM
General consensus is drop tyre pressures to 5-10psi to get
Out of sand?

if not stuck and airing down for a beach run etc, i drop to around 14Psi, but my 4by is quite light, depends on vehicle / tyre

blackjack
10-04-2013, 09:19 PM
Define rolling radius? One that can increase with decreased tyre pressure???

mr_mike
10-04-2013, 09:53 PM
The width of the tyre isn't what gets you out of a bog, it's the rolling radius of the tyre. Thin tyre with big aspect ratio. IE. tall sidewall. When the tyre is deflated the rolling radius of a tall tyre is increased by about 55% and a fat tyre is only about 15%.

If you doubt this, compare tyre in soft sand with your friends tyres. Get someone with a thin tyre vs a fat tyre. Deflate both tyres to the same pressure in the soft sand. Pump tyres back to road pressure. Take note of where the sand is squashed and you will see the thin tyre will have a long depression. Fat tyre will only be marginally better. Thin tyre will be long and flat and that's what stops you getting bogged. Imagine it like a tank track.

Down side, if pressure is too low on thin tyre it will be more prone to pop off rim, however 12psi or so will be enough to hang on as long as your not on full lock under power.

A thin tyre will be more puncture resistant as it won't get staked as easy and the side wall is usually stronger by default due to the higher side walls.

Have a look at any military vehicle.... when was the last time you saw them with a fat tyre? or were they thin will a tall profile? Think back to the Willies Jeep and look at any current army 4wd in Afganstan or Irag, Somalia etc... none of them are equipped with a fat tyre, these guys can't afford to get bogged.

The fat aggressive tyre will only dig you in. Full stop.

On sand yes, but mud and rocks a wide tyre will be better

S85FI
10-04-2013, 10:05 PM
On sand yes, but mud and rocks a wide tyre will be better

HAHA disagree :) Thin tyres come with self cleaning tread pattern. How often have you seen a fat tire with mud caked in the tread and not going anywhere or a fat tyre that has blown a side wall on sharp rocks :p

Can't wait for the AL 4x4 day. I'll be rocking up with my bog stock D22 and pretty confident I'll go anywhere the convoy choses too :) Challenge is on :)

Marti
10-04-2013, 10:07 PM
Apparently my swb gq patrol is close to 3 tons :/

S85FI
10-04-2013, 10:09 PM
Define rolling radius? One that can increase with decreased tyre pressure???

mmmm I'll see if I can get some of my old test weighs for tyre surface pressure per kg/cm2 and scan and work out how to up load pictures to the site.

Basically a skinny wall tyre when flat will have a long flat bit at the bottom. A fat tyre will have a budge. The rolling radius is the length of the flat bit (bottom of tyre) when deflated. I'll see if I can find some links.

mr_mike
11-04-2013, 06:59 AM
HAHA disagree :) Thin tyres come with self cleaning tread pattern. How often have you seen a fat tire with mud caked in the tread and not going anywhere or a fat tyre that has blown a side wall on sharp rocks :p

Can't wait for the AL 4x4 day. I'll be rocking up with my bog stock D22 and pretty confident I'll go anywhere the convoy choses too :) Challenge is on :)

my BFG KM2's are self cleaning mud flys when they spin up, plus having grip blocks on the sidewalls make then more protected from sidewall punctures as well as giving extra grip when in ruts. If skinny tyres where better then why do all the Tough Truck contestants run really aggresive wide tyres?

MrSparkle
11-04-2013, 10:17 AM
HAHA disagree :) Thin tyres come with self cleaning tread pattern. How often have you seen a fat tire with mud caked in the tread and not going anywhere or a fat tyre that has blown a side wall on sharp rocks :p

Can't wait for the AL 4x4 day. I'll be rocking up with my bog stock D22 and pretty confident I'll go anywhere the convoy choses too :) Challenge is on :)

I wasn't going to go but now I want to just to give you an education in modified 4x4s

protecon
11-04-2013, 10:38 AM
The width of the tyre isn't what gets you out of a bog, it's the rolling radius of the tyre.

This.
People often make the mistake of thinking a fatter tyre is better.
Deflating your tyres elongates your footprint, dramatically increasing the amount of surface area in contact with the ground. Much more so than in width.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/Peter_n_Margaret/odds%20and%20ends/Tyrepressures.jpg

Also - Desert Duellers are OK in sand but absolutely horrendous on tarmac - especially in the wet.

mr_mike
11-04-2013, 12:56 PM
I wasn't going to go but now I want to just to give you an education in modified 4x4s

lol i wanna go now just to see a stock nav get stuck trying follow ur hilux

esky
11-04-2013, 02:55 PM
This.
People often make the mistake of thinking a fatter tyre is better.
Deflating your tyres elongates your footprint, dramatically increasing the amount of surface area in contact with the ground. Much more so than in width.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/Peter_n_Margaret/odds%20and%20ends/Tyrepressures.jpg

Also - Desert Duellers are OK in sand but absolutely horrendous on tarmac - especially in the wet.

Tall skinny is better then fat & short obviously.

Fat and tall is better still.

blackjack
11-04-2013, 04:59 PM
Thank you- the picture confirms my thought that the term rolling radius was being incorrectly used. It's a 55% increase in ground contact NOT rolling radius.

lazy6
19-06-2013, 04:43 PM
now running telstar wildtrack atr , A/T very impressed with road noise and impressed with them on the beach shits all over the maxxis bravo 751s!

S85FI
19-06-2013, 06:55 PM
On sand yes, but mud and rocks a wide tyre will be better
Thin tyre will provide more kg per square centimetre. Thus making better traction on the rocks - Mud too -Back to the radius thing. Think to a high heal show on beach sand.... vs a shoe...


Thank you- the picture confirms my thought that the term rolling radius was being incorrectly used. It's a 55% increase in ground contact NOT rolling radius.

I reckon I could dig up photos similar to those displayed. Except with load cells with me in the back ground... just saying... It is rolling radius. Ground contact is the width between the tyres on the same axle. Also sometimes known as Pavement Contact Width.

PHIL
19-06-2013, 07:19 PM
Thin tyre will provide more kg per square centimetre. Thus making better traction on the rocks - Mud too -Back to the radius thing. Think to a high heal show on beach sand.... vs a shoe...

do you 4x4 by chance? thin tyres on sand are way better becuase it cuts through the sand instead trying to push a 12.5'' wide tyre through sand

I reckon I could dig up photos similar to those displayed. Except with load cells with me in the back ground... just saying... It is rolling radius. Ground contact is the width between the tyres on the same axle. Also sometimes known as Pavement Contact Width.


ground contact is how much of the tyre is on the ground. if you let the tyre down you have more ground contact

Niva
19-06-2013, 08:00 PM
This argument has been going on for years,

Personally I have tried both, back to back. 195/75/16 vs 235/75/15 both with 8ply sidewalls. wider tyre, for me anyway was much much better. both sets let down to 10psi

S85FI
19-06-2013, 08:38 PM
On sand yes, but mud and rocks a wide tyre will be better


Thank you- the picture confirms my thought that the term rolling radius was being incorrectly used. It's a 55% increase in ground contact NOT rolling radius.


This.
People often make the mistake of thinking a fatter tyre is better.
Deflating your tyres elongates your footprint, dramatically increasing the amount of surface area in contact with the ground. Much more so than in width.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg120/Peter_n_Margaret/odds%20and%20ends/Tyrepressures.jpg

Also - Desert Duellers are OK in sand but absolutely horrendous on tarmac - especially in the wet.


This argument has been going on for years,

Personally I have tried both, back to back. 195/75/16 vs 235/75/15 both with 8ply sidewalls. wider tyre, for me anyway was much much better. both sets let down to 10psi

195/75/16 = side wall height of 146mm of side wall height. Roll Radius of 2132mm approx.
235/75/15 = side wall height of 176mm sidewall height. Roll Radius of 2237mmapprox. 105mm gain on ground, which is why it is better
235/75/16 = Apply the same for the Side wall height of 176mm. Roll Raduis of 2315mm 183mm gain on ground, which is why this tyre would be better - but your speedo will probably under read by about 10% and the other over 10% hence the manufacture takes caution and under reads your speedo due to most people wanting a bigger tyre. ADR's allow 14% to under read. Check your GPS with most modern 4wd.... they will under read.
The 15 inch rim has a higher side wall resulting in better ground surface area. Therefore better capability. The tyre itself is only 40mm wider which isn't going too do much. Refer ^^^^^^

You can't compare a 15 to a 16 as your aspect ratio will not be the same.

Niva
20-06-2013, 12:21 AM
well I aint gonna argue with science! What I have found in the past though is the majority of the taller thinner tyres have been aimed towards commercial use, with much thicker and stiffer sidewalls... obviously not ideal for dropping the pressures.

S85FI
20-06-2013, 07:45 AM
Bingo. Hence why they are better from staking. The side wall by default has to be stronger to handle high side wall structure and to maintain its integrity.

DanWA
20-06-2013, 09:15 AM
Just a free plug for a great tyre hookup

Cornell Tyres in Sydney... $300 each for 285/75/16 (33's) BF Goodrich KM2 Muddies... All terrains were around the $260 mark to.

Does free delivery to Kewdale Depot to

Mariuszfc20b
22-06-2013, 03:18 AM
I recommend Bighorns.. Been using them for a little while now and they have proven to be the perfect tire for both mud/sand.
Never really had any issues in boggy sand (beside driver error) and they seem to hold there longevity.

Dagon
05-08-2013, 01:32 PM
Another BFG A/T supporter here, beach and gravel is mostly what my R51 pathy sees and the A/T's love it. Vehicle chews up the dunes like nothing else.

Keep a close eye on MALZ specials - they do a semi-regular 50ish%-off special on their air-compressors.
Do NOT NOT NOT get a cheap air compressor as it WILL fail. Wait for the specials and get a decent one.